Showing posts with label waste. Show all posts
Showing posts with label waste. Show all posts

Tuesday, 2 August 2011

Cloth bum!

where has my head been? haven't posted on here in an age!

But the answer to the question is I have been preparing for the baby growing in my belly and due to arrive in the material world in October. Wondering whether I will cope with pregnancy, labour, and a baby. That bit has come more recently when I started to wonder, "what does a baby do?"

I have also been contemplating the environmental impact of having a baby and how to minimise this. As a cloth pad user, who doesn't use wipes or cotton wool but rather muslins and reusable fleece pads it is natural that I would want to use cloth nappies and reusable wipes.

I have no idea which nappies I should use yet, although i am veering towards some sort of pre-fold/muslin or terry with a wrap of some sort for the first couple of months, and then some one-sized nappies for the rest of the way to potty I think. However, I already know as a cloth pad user that purchasing pretty cloth is addictive, and the desire to have new and fancy prints is a difficult one to fight. So I think i will end up with a few of a lot of different types.

Anyone have any experience of cloth bumming they would like to share?

In the meantime I am perusing as many sites and looking at as many different types as I can.

This is one site that has been recommended to me by lots of people, so will be looking to get some stuff from them:
http://cheeksandcherries.blogspot.com/

Sunday, 25 April 2010

it's a cat's life

You may recall I discussed my thoughts on the newspaper article about how your pet can be more environmentally un-friendly than a 4x4.

After careful consideration I am getting 2 cats. I still have some issues to work through. When they come to me they will still be kittens (i know i know, why not recycle a rescue cat? I was going to, and then these ones needed homes, so they are all cats aren't they, they all need homes? Maybe I should have left the kittens to someone who would never get a rescue cat? Well, I haven't. I am having kittens) so many of these questions don't need answering just yet.

The biggest question for me was should they be allowed outside? My dearest Mr Organik believes it is wrong to keep cats indoors. I believe it's OK especially if they have never been outside and you provide them with adequate facilities. My garden is very meadow like (where is this going? Hang on in there, I come back round to topic!) and attracts all sorts of wildlife. We had a "pet" fox one year, we have 2 squirrels regularly although I have only seen 1 recently, bees, birds, butterflies, and my favourite of all slugs, sometimes they even decide to join us in the house for a party. Had to nip that one in the bud! So anyway, we are a bit lazy and this is why the garden is as it is, but I am not a fan of the heavily manicured garden anyway, and a happy coincidence is the wildlife we support. So it seems a shame that my cats will lay that to rest. So I have decided they will be in at night, and certainly at dawn and dusk when cats do most of their killing. So, point one compromise with me and the mr reached, compromise with the environment reached.

Next point is cat litter... If I keep them in at night they have to have a litter tray. Most traditional cat litter is mined exclusively for the purpose of making cat litter. Hmmm. Not sure about this. So I looked into more environmentally friendly option, biodegradable pellets, shredded paper (my bills maybe?!!) but apparently they don't like this as much. There are complex environmentally friendly litter tray solutions, but these are all made of plastic, plus I am being given a litter tray and do not wish to create additional waste. I am considering training them to use the toilet. Everyone seems to think this is a crazy idea, but surely this is the most environmentally friendly option?

Next food... I am vegetarian. I do not intend to raise my cat as vegetarian. I think this is wrong. Everything I have read says cats, unlike dogs, need a meat based diet. But again, many cat food brands are either subsidiaries of evil companies, and/or they source meat as purely for cat food that would have been fit for human consumption, whereas there is meat left over from the human meat industry which could make cat food. I need to read more about this to decide.

I am trying to get natural cat toys and bedding and things too. Not things made of plastic and man-made materials. There is a brand at Pets at Home called Willow, where it all looks natural, but as it makes no claims to be organic or anything on it I am suspecting it is trying to cash in on the organic market without being that at all. Of course I can see it is made from sisal and hessian and things and not plastic so I can see with my own eyes it is less artificial than some of the toys.

So many questions, what are the answers?!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010

my poor neglected blog!

I ave neglected this a little. I haven't stopped the environmental cause though. I had a miscarriage, but while pregnant I was debating with myself the environmental impact of a child in a western, northern hemisphere country.

My considerations were - do I as a vegetearian eat fish to ensure my developing baby gets enough omega-3 for brain and eye development (I was eating a spoonful of flaxseed oil everyday anyway, bleurgh! But there are some question marks over whether this short chain omega 3 is useful even given the poor conversion rate to long chain omega such as that found in fish).

-what nappies will I use?
-will I use washable wipes?
-what about toys etc?

Then I had a miscarriage and had to wear pads (sanitary towels) while I was bleeding and spotting - 18 days. I normally use a mooncup and cloth pads at night, but I didn't have enough cloth pads, so I felt awful contributing to landfill. My wonderful husband points out that this is better for the environment than having a child! Hmm.

Anyway, we are getting cats so that throws up it's own issues. I have blogged on pets before, and my next post will either be about volcanoes and lack of planes in the sky (yay!) or about cats. I'm not sure yet, but let's hope it doesn't take so long as this post to happen!

Monday, 15 February 2010

January was my "buy nothing new" month. I did actually fail a bit - I "accidentally" bought an umbrella. That said not having bought it wouldn't have done much because I did need one, so not buying it for the whole of January would only have delayed me buying it til february, and then I may not have seen the charity umbrella that I ended up buying. There were also several other things I needed which I put off buying until February (for instance a new eyebrow pencil, the good shopping guide etc). Most of these I have actually still not bought, but I don't think the challenge will reduce my consumption of those things, I have not been using my eyebrow pencil any less for instance, so buying one in january would just have meant i had it ready to start using sooner. There were a few items I probably would have bought if it hadn't been the challenge, which I have now forgotten about and no longer want, so the challenge was successful with those things.

Talking of things which haven't been bought and therefore have slipped from the mind, hence I didn't really want.... I wonder how many of the possessions in my own home are actually category instances of that that just managed to get past the first filter. Which of the things in my home would I not have missed had I never bought them? Time to find those things and get them out, free up the house and mind, and try not to fill it with these things again!

I think a challenge is a good way to focus the mind. Obviously I was already aware that everything I buy has a carbon and a waste value associated with it, both post consumer and in production. In fact production is something that has been bothering me more and more of late, but I think i will leave that barely touched upon for now, and will come back to that issue another time.

So even though I knew all that, and do think about it when I buy things I think sometimes I push it to the back of my mind, whereas the challenge brought it to the front of my mind (most of the time, except when I was in tescos and bought the umbrella). So, even though I am not continuing with the challenge this month, I am still thinking about all new purchases and trying to decide how necessary they are. I am trying to buy predominantly used where possible, or not at all. Most of the things we buy we were living perfectly happily without for many years before, we don't really need them at all. Of course part of being a human is having some things we don't need, but do like, and I am happy with that. I try to make these things things which make me feel happy, and if possible fair trade and sustainable. Where this isn't possible I am not going to beat myself up for tiny things. I am on a journey and doing the best I can, and doing better over time.

Monday, 25 January 2010

A small problem? No, a micro-problem!

My microwave is broken, well maybe it isn't even very broken, but it's making funny noises and doing weird things with the lights, and basically I'm a bit scared of microwaves so we haven't tried anything since then.

I have tried calling every microwave repair person in the city, and just outside and they either never answer their phone and don't call back, or the wrong number is listed on yell! If I travel too far it will become a toss up which is more environmentally friendly, repairing the microwave and driving to get it done or just buying a new one.

Apparently currys will recycle my old one, but that doesn;t help all the resources and waste it will take to make my new one, plus the energy expended to get the other one recycled.

I read a thing a while ago that said if you already owned a microwave then it was environmentally sound to use it as they use less energy than conventional ovens, but that if you didn't have one already it was doubtless unethical to buy one. But now I am trying to find out how bad they are, and pretty much drawing a blank.

At first it was OK, but now I am starting to wish there was one. I don't use it loads, but I do steam veg in it, and reheat meals which have been made the day before. I think it is less environmentally sound to keep using the cooker to reheat, and to use extra washing liquid and water to clean things which have stuff baked on.

The last microwave has lasted about 8 years, so it;s not like it's an everyday purchase, but not a once in a lifetime one either.

I don't really know what the best thing to do is. Nothing until January and the buy nothing new challenge is over!

Wednesday, 20 January 2010

What a load of bog roll!



With regards to Going Paperless I decided to monitor how much toilet roll I used. Crunchy Chicken reckons that the average american uses 8.9 sheets on average per visit to the throne room, adding up to a total of 57 sheets per day. Wowzers!

Since monitoring I have found that it varies, or can vary greatly, day to day, even (hopefully this won't be TMI) if there are similar jobs to be done on the throne each day. However, either Americans use single ply loo roll, or they do more poos or something because my daily average is 13.25 sheets.

This does admittedly add up to 4836.25 sheets in a year, which with rolls of 200ish sheets is 24 toilet rolls a year. Which actually is 2 per month, which I would have thought would be more than I used, but there you go.

Of course this doesn't take into account blowing your nose and the like, but I do try to use a hanky. I do that partly just because I prefer the feel of real cotton on my face, and not toilet paper, but now I am actively trying to reduce paper wastage I shall make sure I use that.

Saturday, 16 January 2010

Go paperless?

It's what all the eco-types are doing, and what all the big businesses are doing to greenwash the rest of the shady practices, encouraging you to go "paperless". I have gone paperless with my bank accounts, credit cards and several utility bills.

Then I started thinking about reducing other paper products... I currently use kitchen roll (for holding my boiled eggs, cleaning up spills in the kitchen, wiping the grease off my hands if we have a take away, and as the first absorption layer when pressing tofu) and of course, toilet roll.

I was reading Fake Plastic Fish and Beth was recommending some cloth alternatives to kitchen roll. The particular ones she recommended were totally natural (no plastic hiding in them like most cloths and cloth wipes) and biodegradable/compostable when the end of their life is reached, and come in minimal card packaging. Unfortunately they only seem to be available in the US. I am sure there must be some sort of equivalent product in the UK, I need to do some research to find it, but I wanted those, I liked the look of them.

Then I was thinking about the bog roll (I would never say that out loud, I call it "loo paper" normally!) and actually said to someone, "don't worry we won't be getting rid of that" (except I probably shouldn't have said it out loud because experience has taught me that many of the things I now do, think and like are things I have previously said "never" to). I actually didn't really even think anyone (except in countries where bidets are the norm, or people are very poor) didn't use it.

We buy 100% recycled paper. But then I was reading on Crunchy Chicken about her cloth wipe challenge. Strange I would read this at the same time I have been thinking about it. She and her family use cloth for "#1s" and paper for "#2s" but plenty of people apparently use wash and wipe even for number 2s. This would be very impractical for us as throne room is quite distinct from the washroom, so to speak.

Anyways, for the time being I don't think I will be making that change, and I doubt I ever will, but as I say, I used to say I hated dreads, thought washable menstrual wear was a bridge too far and wouldn't want my lip pierced, I didn't like soya milk and thought it was ok to fly.

I used to think paper wasn't that bad... it biodegrades over time, it comes from sustainably managed forests or it is recycled. Then I learned that it degrades anaerobically in landfill and produces greenhouse gases, so I stopped throwing any paper away at all. For many years now it has all gone in the recycling, been used up, or gone in the compost. Then I stopped buying paper that wasn't recycled as far as reasonably possible because of the higher energy costs in virgin production as compared with recycling. But of course the energy costs of recycling are far higher than not using it at all.

Crunchy Chicken states that on average US citizens use 8.6 sheets of paper per trip to the toilet, which she equates to 57 sheets per day, which I calculate to be 6.63 toilet trips per day. Much as I love her blog, really? US citizens go to the toilet more than 6 times a day? Using 8.6 sheets even just for a wee? Maybe that is single ply figures so really it is 4.3 of our usual 2 ply, but even that sounds like a lot, even for an average across #1s and #2s. Some people must be using hella toilet paper!

Anyway, an effort to reduce toilet paper consumption for the sake of the paper, the waste, and the costs of cleaning the water seem like a good thing all round.

TMI? I have used 7 sheets so far today. I haven't been trying to use a minimal amount. I thought I would just see, for curiosity's sake how much I use in a day, and then maybe try to reduce. How much do you use each day?

Friday, 1 January 2010

My buy nothing new challenge

I had been debating having a "green" new year's resolution, but couldn't think of one that I thought was meaningful, or significantly challenging or worthwhile for this year at least.

I decided on something quite separate for an entirely different reason. I made two:
1) look after the house and garden more
2) live more frugally.

It is the second which is or interest to this particular post. So, I have already decided I am to live more frugally. As I say this is not for green purposes, but does come after the consideration and rejection of some similar green style resolutions:
-buy no more new clothes, only second hand
-buy less
-only buy basic clothing etc

I dismissed these for various reasons.

Then today I was reading about the compact whose aim is to buy nothing new. I don't want to permanently go down this route since lots of the new things i buy are fair trade which will directly impact on the lives of others if I stop buying them (don't worry I am not deluding myself by how much it will or won't help - but it certainly won't help people in poor communities if people in rich communities all stop buying their products and instead start living off the waste products of other rich people). Mr Green-Eyed also tells me that we have to consume more in order for the world to carry on turning pretty much. Which I accept, but I actually think that world economics is wrong and we should switch to a non-growth economy. Either way, I don't believe in excess consumption, but I don't think just switching to buying other people's waste is the answer either. The reason there are such good "waste" products in charity shops and on ebay is because people are consuming more new things, so a reduction in consumption in general would be more my speed.

However, I like a challenge, even one riddled with ethical nightmares such as this!

So, my January challenge is to buy nothing new. Nothing new for one month.

Things I am allowed to buy:
-used second hand items
-food and drinks
-food and drinks which come with free gifts so long as the food or drink item would have been bought regardless of the gift.

I will keep you updated :)

Sunday, 27 December 2009

we had a white christmas, and a green christmas!

It snowed on christmas day, for maybe the first time in my entire life! We already had snow on the ground, then it snowed just past midnight, we were still up and saw it, and so we had the snow in the garden, and about a quarter of an inch of fresh snow. Apparently bookies paid out on bets of white christmas in nottingham.

So one colour was fixed, what about the other? Green?

Of course the ultimate green christmas would have been sitting in the dark without a christmas tree eating food foraged or gained freganistically meditating or something.

Obviously I didn't take things that far, but I made some green choices where I could.

  • we ate vegetarian (as I always do, but some of the other 7 wouldn't normally)

  • I home cooked a vegan loaf to reduce a) animal products and b) packaging and processing costs

  • I bought all veg british and where possible locally grown

  • I have already talked about the ethical dilemma I had with the christmas tree and how i resolved this (I bought a real tree in a pot which I intend to keep for next year and beyond)

  • all my decorations are made of natural materials, no plastic whatsoever (although to be fair, at least part of this is aesthetics!)

  • I didn't buy a single card or piece of wrapping paper - I made cards (although I did use new card, but hopefully people will like them and treasure them), and I used pre-used paper


I bought people ethical gifts where possible -


People also know I like these things too, and I received a ring made from a teaspoon handle, and some table mats and coasters made from recycled fireman's hose.

I also received Leo Hickman's book - A Life Stripped Bare, Anthony Gidden's Politics of Climate Change and Time Out's Great Train Journey's of the World. I did a train holiday this year and believe this is without a doubt the ultimate way forward.

To improve my green christmas for next year i need to:
  • reduce produced items such as real eat roast

  • buy fairtrade crackers (if I had known about these before I bought mine I would have bought them, but I already had some. Of course some people say that crackers are a terrible bane for the environmentalist, this is somehting I shall have to think about. I did put all the recyclables in the recycling though)

  • more green presents for others

  • less electric lighting and more candles

  • cards made from recycled materials

  • reuse this year's tree

Sunday, 20 December 2009

A petty problem

We are currently a no-pet family, although I am hoping we will be getting cats, rescue cats, 2 of them, after Christmas. That was until my husband read an article in the Guardian saying that some pets are worse for the environment than an SUV. My first instinct was to be outraged. I want a cat, how can a cat be worse for the environment than an SUV? (To be fair, cats aren't it's medium and large dogs which are, according to the article). Then having gotten over my outrage I decided to think rationally - if cats really are that bad for the environment then maybe I shouldn't get two, or even one. It's no good only listening to the green info I want to hear.

I arranged my thoughts into some sort of order and then read the Leo Hickman (who I do really like, I subscribe to his blog, but must have missed this post, I have his books on my amazon wish list too!) article. So, the article is quoting research from Time to Eat the Dog by Robert and Brenda Vale which finds that a cat requires 0.15 global hectares to keep it fed, the equivalent of driving a VW golf for 10000 miles a year, plus the energy required to make the car in the first place. So my two cats is almost at the energy cost of buying a 4.6 litre Toyota Landcruiser and driving it for 10000 miles a year (0.41 global hectares). Luckily I don't drive a Toyota Landcruiser as well then!

My next thoughts all concern the fact that I would be getting a rescue cat, so that cat is already having that footprint regardless of whether I own it or not. So actually so long as I promote responsible pet owning and only get a rescue cat I should probably get the cats so as to reduce the load on the shelters. Plus if it is going to be having the footprint anyway someone might as well get the joy from it, which I would.

My next thoughts all concern all the positives about having a pet. For instance, the joy and love that I myself would get. Then there is the positive personal and social impact that pets have on children (which I don't have yet, but would like to, although of course they have a far larger footprint than a cat, no joke). The article also explained some additional benefits - people with pets have greater immunity and visit the doctor less, 21% less when they are elderly, how many global hectares does that account for one wonders. Plus the mental health benefits that pets bring.

I would also think I might be less likely to go out if I had a pet thereby reducing my consumption and waste in shops, pubs, restaurants and cinemas. Of course I don't drive a car at all, very often. We have a small car between us which neither of us drive very often. I walk to work and get the bus and train further afield, despite the additional time, money and stress costs that this can often entail. I take all my compostable waste to work, I bring home any recyclable waste from work. That's right - I carry bags of waste to and from work despite the fact I walk, often in the rain - because it is the right thing to do. I don't eat any animals (that themselves have an eco footprint), I try to minimise my plastic consumption, I try not to fly. I pay extra to have 100% renewable electricity from Good Energy. We try not to have the heating on, and didn't turn it on at all until December this year (except one freakishly cold day in November).

I don't think that doing that means I can do anything I like, indeed I hate to hear people say, "I can do this ungreen thing because I recycle most of my stuff at home". But actually, surely I have reduced my footprint by that of a cat, so I am still on a positive even if I do have a cat? Plus the fact that my children will be more socially adaptable and I will use the NHS less later in life, and I will go out less. Maybe all these things add up to a cat having less of a footprint than it would seem?

I do think we should consider the ecological footprint of activities we partake in and lifestyle choices we make, but I don't think that means we have to not do anything which carries a number, which everything does. It's a case of weighing up pros and cons, and making thoughtful choices. How many global hectares does going to a pub every friday and saturday take? How many global hectares for out of date food which has been thrown away (I eat yoghurts 2 months out of date), how many global hectares to buy a newspaper every day? How many to have a cup of tea every day?

I appreciate the article for giving me the chance to consider the impact of having a pet (which I already had from a vegetarian standpoint, but i think this post has maybe been going on for long enough!) and I have added the book to my wish list, but I have weighed it all up and will still be getting my cat in the new year :)

(do you know I didn't even discuss the indoor cat/outdoor cat arguments, maybe I will do that when I have the cat)

Thursday, 17 December 2009

not-cotton wool, or not-cotton not-wool

I have just started using what I like to call not-cotton not-wool. I started using a muslin square to remove my make-up and was still using cotton wool for my toner. I started looking into organic cotton wool due to the ethical conundrums surrounding cotton. Then on a somewhat unrelated note I started to phase out all disposable menstrual wear (having used a moon cup for eons, but still having some disposable back up pads).

At this point I wondered whether you could get reusable cotton wool as it were. Of course you can!

I bought a fleece set, a bamboo set and a hemp set. I am testing them all out. It's a tricky business though, no-one tells you how to use these things. I mean, you pick up how to use a disposable cotton wool pad. Basically you use it and chuck it in the bin.

Reusables are a tad more confusing - what sort of fibre? For what job? should i stain remove first? Or just wash?

So far I have tried the fleece ones. It felt soft on my skin and held the toner in a similar way to a cotton wool pad. I then washed it with warm soapy water before letting it dry then putting it in my net laundry bag for my small washable items like this. I only do my laundry with soap nuts you see, so i think if i didn't remove the stains at this stage it would probably come out of the wash looking similar to how it went in. All seems good with that one so far.

Then today I thought I would try a hemp one. That was so super absorbant that i had to use loads of toner. It just disappeared into the pad. I think this is the stuff nappies should be made from! So, not feeling the hemp ones yet.

Bamboo is still yet to be tried....

Saturday, 12 December 2009

Reusable versus disposable?

Normally the reusable versus disposable debate also features the natural versus man-made debate. So resuable nappies are made of cotton, bamboo or hemp whereas disposable are made of plastic. Menstrual pads the same. This somehow makes the question easier to answer... natural = good, reusable = good, job's a good'n!

Except of course it is more complex than that. There is the debate about how natural is natural, especially in the cases of bamboo and hemp, and also about the energy costs for reusable.

That is for another post though as today's post is about a different sort of disposable versus reusable - Christmas trees.

As a child we always had a real tree, and I love the smell and look of real trees, I actually find fake trees a little depressing and pointless. Well that isn't fair, I don't really, but I would if I had one in my house. I think I would rather not bother. As an adult I have not had a Christmas tree, but this year we are having people round on Christmas day (green-eyed does Christmas!) and I would like a tree. I would like a real tree. But then there is the quandary over the real tree and so I was considering a fake tree.

So real trees are natural, and natural equals good, right? Well maybe not. They are a big crop, could that ground be used to grow food crops? Maybe in some cases, but would it? Maybe, maybe not. They can also be grown in ground which is not suitable for other crops. More importantly they are sprayed with Roundup. Roundup, the pesticide which causes the most poisoning and death. Hrmmm. I could buy an organic tree, if only I could find one!

So then, maybe I should buy a reusable tree, less waste, no removal quandaries. Once it has got to me that is it in terms of energy expenditure. No pesticides. Just petrochemicals. Probably quite a lot of tree miles as well. Plus I would have to use it for many years as they can't be recycled, and I do hate landfill.

Most green sites suggest you shouldn't get a real tree. They don't really say what you should do though. No tree I guess. That's not very festive though is it? I feel like I should be able to have a tree. But then do I come back to that perennial problem, I do as much green stuff as I can therefore it is OK to fly round the world and back again.

Harrumph. I feel like a tree should be a possibility, I will be sharing my Christmas with 7 others as well. It will be my first tree since being an adult.

I think I have left it too late to get a real tree anyway. But that aside, I think i have decided to try and get a small real tree in a pot, which I will then keep in a pot and reuse next year.

Monday, 30 November 2009

Peddle Power

I exercise a lot. I am a member of my council leisure services. I get it half price because I work for them. I think it is good for me to support the council services, presumably the more people who support it, the cheaper it is and the more options there will be for people.

I go to the gym and i go to various classes - step, aerobics, bums tums & thighs, spinning.

Where is this going? What is the environmental link? Both good questions.

I also go running. I am not so good at running. I do like it for more than one reason though, even if i don't particularly actually like running itself! I like that it is free (although under my current leisure subscription it actually doesn't cost me any extra to do any additional activities in their facilities, i pay monthly) and it also is zero impact, ecological impact (unless you are running across wildflower fields, or panda mating grounds or something).

This leads me to feel bad when I run on the gym in the treadmill. They use so much power, and I am in a room with heating/air conditioning (sometimes both! Stupid council facilities), lights, fans, music, TVs etc. Plus the new gen treadmills have built in TVs with little, well reasonably sized actually, monitors in. I don't even WANT the monitor, I want just to see my times and things, but that has to be displayed through a screen that probably uses as much power as 10 light bulbs or somehting. At least though i am actually using the info displayed on the screen, I am trying to improve my times, checking my pace etc. Then I see people who are in the gym WALKING on the treadmill. OHMYGOSH what a waste of electricity. But who am I to judge? Everyone has their reasons, and I am only found on the zero-ecological-impact route once or maybe twice a week, compared with the electricity overload of the gym/classes which I attend at least three times a week.

My classes aren't as bad as the gym. Just the heating/air conditioning death match of doom, plus one CD player and amp, and one microphone headset. But that is split between 10-15 people. I think for the variety of exercise and the motivational benefit I can let that one go.

Now, just the other day I saw the music player you power with human running power and it got me thinking...

In spinning (cycling exercise class which simulates hills, corners and stuff) i think they should capitalise on this idea, and wire the bikes up to the lights (they have disco lights in spinning) and music. Not only would this be great as it would be enviro-friendly electricity, but it would also be a great motivator to exercise... if it all went dark and the music was slowing down, we would all have to peddle harder. Green electricity and a better work out, what more could you ask for?